From Microgravity to Microbiomes: The Interstellar Journey With The Scientist Fathi Karouia

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Microbiome Mavericks podcast, the only place where microbiome science meets real-world applications.

[00:00:08] I am your host Dr. Amine Zorgani and Microbiome expert on a mission to prevent the human microbiome from extinction.

[00:00:16] In this episode we have the pleasure of speaking with Fethe Karwaya, senior research scientist at NASA,

[00:00:24] space-life science subject matter expert, consultant entrepreneur and speaker whose work combines two of the most intriguing subjects on our planet,

[00:00:36] space and microbiomes.

[00:00:39] Fethe shares his insight into the complex interaction between microbes and the harsh environment of space

[00:00:46] and how his research not only contributes to our understanding of space exploration but also practical application here on Earth.

[00:00:56] Fethe's team discovered that bacteria grow faster, are more resistant to stress and antibiotics and tend to form biofilms in microgravity conditions.

[00:01:07] Remarkably, a strains of bacillus pymulus was found to be 1000 times more resistant to UV radiations than other strains,

[00:01:20] even surviving exposure outside the international space station for 18 months.

[00:01:27] Wow, just that!

[00:01:30] Enjoy the episode and please follow and share. Happy to hear your thoughts and stay positive!

[00:01:37] Today I have the pleasure to have with me on this microbiome fabric podcast, someone who basically combines two of one of the fascinating things on this planet which is space and microbiomes,

[00:01:51] which you know that it's something I like and basically promote to the maximum.

[00:01:58] I have the pleasure to have Fethe, who are with us, so Fethe, welcome to the microbiome fabrics.

[00:02:05] Thank you, pleasure!

[00:02:07] It was really last year when I interviewed Professor Joseph Bork, who basically sent skin microbiome samples to the International Space Station with SpaceX three times

[00:02:20] and his idea was basically to understand whether these microbes will be influenced with microgravity,

[00:02:25] and whether or not they will acquire a new antimicrobial resistant genes.

[00:02:30] It wasn't the first one to basically use the microption space though, but his ideas on this put or fit skin microbiome samples and what happened to them.

[00:02:40] I found that the approach was interesting for me and fascinating, and you are also active in this space,

[00:02:47] of the space microbiome.

[00:02:50] So can you tell us a little bit about your work in the field of what we call it also astrobiology and how it contributes to our understanding of space and life on Earth as well,

[00:03:01] because it's not all about space, right?

[00:03:03] So you're also looking into what happens on Earth through space.

[00:03:08] Yes, so I have a very broad set of interest and that goes from astrobiology which is looking for life elsewhere to planetary protection,

[00:03:21] which is minimizing risk when we explore the planets.

[00:03:26] And then there's the reverse problem, which is making sure the Earth files remain at bay when we're bringing samples from other planets like Mars.

[00:03:36] To space biology, which is more or less understanding our Earth-based life can adapt and cope with the space environment to human space flight,

[00:03:48] which is more or less understanding and mitigating the risk for long duration space flight.

[00:03:54] And then I work also in technology and so technology derived to kind of in some way enable exploration.

[00:04:01] So I have a very broad set of interest, but the core of all that is related to space life sciences.

[00:04:09] And so as you can imagine, I mean we've been in space for over 60 years and so media investigations in space life science have been done and conducted.

[00:04:21] We have been operating the international space station for over 20 years, I mean almost 25 and there have been roughly almost 4,000 investigation performed on the ISS since the start of the building in 98.

[00:04:41] And from those studies, I mean currently I think as I recall there is roughly almost like 3,500 publication which are related to those investigation.

[00:04:53] And so there have been a roughly 3,500 publication came out since the international space station have been operational.

[00:05:05] And so therefore a lot of information from those studies have derived and and enable us to kind of better understand how biological system respond.

[00:05:16] And so my interest of mine focused mainly, I mean lately more on the space microbiology and so kind of better understanding how microboscope with the specimen moment.

[00:05:28] And maybe in 2014 I was involved with an interesting study which is called the microbotracking one and so actually that was the first comprehensive study where we collected swabs from different area on the body and attention space station.

[00:05:48] And also took samples from the air and the idea there was to perform two things one is to perform a culture based analysis so always collect the samples, grow on the ground and trying to see what type of organism.

[00:06:02] And so looking at the KIA, fungi and then of course with the advances of sequencing now we can we can use those half-foot put methods to kind of better characterize at molecular level the composition of all those different communities.

[00:06:19] And what was interesting about this investigation is that actually it was an investigation where we were able to collect samples of three different time forms and so two of those were collected kind of back to back with one month, whether they were one month apart.

[00:06:35] And then the last one was roughly one year and so certainly as you can imagine I mean the microbiome on the ISS is pretty much influenced by the occupants.

[00:06:46] And so maybe I can back up a little bit so there's three different type of communities that you might expect in close habitat like the attention space station.

[00:06:55] The first one is contaminants and so those were actually coming from when those model were built in assemble on the ground.

[00:07:05] So a dispective fact that those were assembled in clean rooms facilities, I mean you still have of contaminants that will be found.

[00:07:13] The second one is microbes which actually were intentionally introduced on the orientation space station and so those could be related to life support system for example as you can imagine we use plants on a daily basis I mean this has been very important for the morale of the crew but.

[00:07:33] You can also imagine when we envision non duration space flight we trying to kind of come up with system and a life support system that enable us to be able to minimize the amount of consumables that were bringing from earth and therefore having plants not just for food but also for oxygen consumption is critical and so.

[00:07:56] So we do have a lot of plants on both the attention space station and then which is something related to your interest is is a microbiome and so crew will be taking also some probiotics to kind of help to maintain healthy microbiome.

[00:08:13] And then the last part is of course the anthropogenic origin of the organism and so there's occupants on the orientation space station and therefore the bulk of the microbiome which are found on the attention space station are human, human related and so those are the three main ecosystems.

[00:08:33] And so on that first studies as I mentioned was three different time points or the first two points kind of were very closely related in the microbiome composition are whether there was kind of some striking differences when we look at the third type which as I mentioned was like a year later and those differences were mainly due to the fact that the environment is very dynamic they are crew rotations.

[00:08:59] And what was interesting from a microbiome perspective is that the bulk of the microbiome as I mentioned are human associated related to this thing from from a large part.

[00:09:11] And but what was also the overall assessment is that the assess is overall clean as an environment per se and so I think overall the crew does a good job we did see an increase by two fold of anti microbial resistance genes.

[00:09:29] And again the the sources and the origin is still it's still need to be confirmed but nevertheless that was something that was striking at that time.

[00:09:39] But what was also of interest to us is that we did a subsequent investigation which which was actually done with the principal investigator crystal jammed Lawrence Leven more national lab I have to mention that the first 30s the PI is like Katsuri Venkataswar and other general population laboratory and so.

[00:09:58] I was lucky enough to to manage those two investigation what was interesting about the second one is actually it was not just an environmental assessment but it was also a crew microbiome assessment so the question was not just to look and take samples from the I says was also to take sample from the crew and so we're lucky enough to get for crew members actually those were international crew members that participated throughout.

[00:10:26] But I think it was like three years 30s roughly and so there was overlaps with some of the crew members or others were coming this right after a crew member finish is his expedition.

[00:10:39] And so what we saw again I mean clearly we saw a clear correlation between the environmental microbiome and the skin microbiome so bulk of the environmental microbiome comes from the skin microbiome so that was not surprising.

[00:10:55] Remember when we were looking at the microbiome on crew members I mean we were taking samples prior to the mission we were taking three samples during and then we took three samples after so one sample right after return one month after return and the other one six months after return.

[00:11:12] So we were able to see changes changes in the right city and there was a striking decrease in in the crew microbiome during during space flight and in some way this is expected I mean as you can imagine this is a close environment.

[00:11:26] The food I mean it's getting better but as you can imagine it's very different from here on earth and so and so it was not surprising to see a decrease in a diversity from the crew but what was good to see is that when the crew.

[00:11:41] We turned to the ground we were able to see that the diversity is kind of started to kind of pick up and come back to what was prior to mission and so a lot of changes are occurring but things seems to kind of come back to normal.

[00:11:59] And then I mentioned earlier that during the first mission we saw an increase in antimicrobial resistance however when we did subsequent studies taking samples from the environment it seems now that that the microbiome seems to be stable and similarly those.

[00:12:15] antimicrobial resistance genes which were initially observed seems also to be stable as we speak and so so I think that was an exciting use but certainly we find a lot of interesting compounds and microorganism and those two studies actually showed that those are type of things that needs to be done on regular basis we need to kind of monitor the environment but also the crew microbiome.

[00:12:41] Because there's still a lot of things that we need to learn and certainly we only know for missions that last for six months but as you can imagine if you're on vision one day going to Mars I mean that would be three years mission which means that we need to expand those type of study to better characterize changes in the microbiome not just the environment but also from health perspective.

[00:13:03] Thank you you mentioned there are some changes that happens to these crew members during the mission which you observed on the skin but potentially there are also some changes within their gut microbiome and that's why they probably take these probiotics but as we know there are companies like SpaceX and others that trying to open the doors to more general.

[00:13:33] In general public right to exploring the space and looking beyond space maybe and going to the moon and Mars afterwards what can the science say today about the changes and how dramatic are they to the human microbiome on someone goes to space because there is a study that I've read at some point about the skin cancer for us to do.

[00:14:03] So the astronauts and the dominance and prevalence of skin cancer these people who basically stays for six months or a year in space station.

[00:14:15] So the first skin cancer is increased compared to the people living on earth so how can we basically today mitigate some issues that somebody who's not trained or you know it's not ready for this kind of explorations and protect their microbiomes which eventually protecting their house.

[00:14:37] Let me back up a little bit and provide the context of the hazards of human space flights.

[00:14:45] So currently there are five different risks that we track and first one is space radiation so as you can imagine when we escaping the protecting layers of earth then we are increasing exposure to space radiation when we stay in law of orbit it's slightly higher than on earth.

[00:15:06] But as you can imagine if one day we decide and we're able to go to Mars that will be a tremendous impact on astronauts health and actually is probably one of the main limiting factors for human space flights.

[00:15:20] The second is the ultra red microgravity so what does that mean by that? Well when you are here on earth Earth gravity is what we call one G so but when you're in low earth or this it's microgravity so 10 to the minus six.

[00:15:36] And so we from a health perspective I mean currently on both the attention space station or for activities in low earth orbit microgravity and radiation are the key elements for changes to the human physiology.

[00:15:51] But then when you envision going back to the moon or going to Mars at some point then you have to also come take into consideration the fact that the gravity level would be changing too right.

[00:16:01] So on the moon it will be one six of gravity and then on Mars you would be roughly 37% of gravity and so then the big question is how the human physiology would be adapting to those transition from one G to microgravity to maybe one six or 40% of gravity level.

[00:16:19] And so that creates also a lot of issues. The third one is isolation and confinement and so of course you close habitat and so your way from family loved ones you working with people and we have hopefully have good interaction with them but they also have a tremendous impact on the human physiology.

[00:16:38] And then there's a other one which is number four, which is distance from earth. So we kind of hear on raw earth orbits can very close it is an issue it's very easy to return to earth but when we envision admission to Mars I mean that would be a six months journey right and so

[00:16:56] For some aspect in what I assume to communication the crew would have to be independent because it would take eight minutes to communicate with earth which means that if you are to wait eight minutes again answer about the decision then you do right.

[00:17:09] Which means that the crew will have to be independent and so that also added a layers of complexity and then the last one is hostile close environment of course you have an habitat which is a close environment.

[00:17:21] So pushing very hard to have what we call 100% by our regenerative system which means that we kind of trying to recycle as much as we can.

[00:17:31] And again, this is for obvious reason why we don't want to take too many resources from earth because it's very expensive and but that brings another sets of issues I mean as you can imagine if you recycle things well then you need to make sure that you have a right tools to kind of monitor the environment make sure you take

[00:17:50] a vaccine out of the environment remove the carbon dioxide and then able to recycle waters and so forth. So all of those things brings a lot of suits of risk and constraints to the human in general.

[00:18:05] So now shift gears from a human perspective what is the impact of microgravity or I guess activities in law of orbit from a human perspective.

[00:18:18] Of course, the environment in space is very different on earth right from an evolution perspective our body adapted to earth gravity therefore when we in space the body will adapt but certainly from an evolution perspective I mean we have not been optimized.

[00:18:34] To be able to live in the other condition and so let me kind of list a few things that we have learned so far from over 60 years of studies in law of orbit.

[00:18:47] So because of lack of gravity I mean as you can imagine your muscles as well as your bone are impacted and so there is roughly 5 to 10 percent decrease in muscle size.

[00:19:00] There's over 20 percent of decrease in muscle strength and then actually there's also changes in the type of fibers for a long duration space fight.

[00:19:12] From a bone perspective there is a decrease in bone density and so roughly for one month mission you have a loss of one entity between 1 to 1.5 percent and so as you can imagine this quite significant.

[00:19:27] And so just on the skeletal and muscle part I mean as you can see because of a lack of gravity then there's a lot of atrophy and the bone density is quite significant.

[00:19:41] There is also what we call cardiovascular deconditioning and so because of the fluid shift so lack of gravity when we hear on earth the center of inertia is around our stomach where in space is roughly around our chest which means there's a.

[00:19:54] That increase the free shift towards ahead and so actually when you see pictures of crew in space they have more like a perfect face and that's you know mainly due to the fact that there's that free shift towards the head but nevertheless.

[00:20:09] The minister is I've shown that there are heart heart because the heart doesn't need to work as hard on the ground as you recall you know heart is a pump is pumping the blood out of the bottom of your body and trying to circulate it throughout your body and so you in space you don't mean the heart to work on much then there's studies I've shown this cardiac distress so heartbeat is constant then there's decrease in plasma volume as well as blood cell mass.

[00:20:35] And then when you return there is what we call orthostatic intolerance and so that's really why you always see the crew sitting when they return because if they stand up they will faint from the main reason there is that it will take time to the body to read just to one G and for the heart to be able to pump the blood from the bottom part of your limbs to to other areas of your of your body.

[00:20:59] Then there is the another aspect which is critical and it's related to the immune system and so actually the immune system is it's not working properly and so actually the crew is immoral compromise so kind of similar setting that you might see.

[00:21:14] In hospital and so what does I mean well many studies have shown that actually there is alterations in the functionality on the expression of key elements of the immune system so for example there is alteration in the body.

[00:21:29] Natural killer cells there is alteration in T cells and again those are very important to help us fight against microorganists for example similarly studies have shown that there is a decrease of those type of cells to be able to defend yourself and so there's a lower phytocytosis or oxidative stress capabilities of notrophiles.

[00:21:56] Also alteration in the leukocyte and also there is a decrease on the microgrey function of monocyte so again all those are key elements which are very important to the immune system and many studies have shown that all those are altered by the lack of gravity again we still don't understand the rational there is probably a combination of the stress related to the mission plus the fact that the uniqueness environment so radiation microgravities and so forth.

[00:22:23] What is also interesting is that as you can imagine we have dormit viruses in us and many of them actually are reactivated while in space and so this is also something of concern.

[00:22:35] And then again there's other aspects which are important there's a new one which which we call space acetate neural ocular syndrome and so this is something kind of relative in you which was observed for past 10 years or so

[00:22:50] and more or less is related to the free shift was your head and so that impact your ocular system and put some pressure there is some information and optic nerve is also some deformation

[00:23:03] and actually some crew has returned to the ground with some impairment into their visual equity and so certainly there's a currently a lot of interest related to that because visual equity is critical.

[00:23:16] And then there also been studies looking at the molecular change and so as you can imagine the environment is very stressful and so there's from a molecular point of view I mean there's a lot of oxidative stresses, DNA damage, there's dysregulation in the mitochondria

[00:23:32] there's epigenetic as well as genetic changes and so a lot of changes including the microbiome as I just mentioned and so all of those elements bring a subset of risk to human health and and certainly impact us from the ability to explore and impact us to be able to perform long duration space flight

[00:23:59] and so so far we've been launching and flying the cream of the cream I mean those astronauts from all major space agencies they have been selected

[00:24:09] and those are the top tiers and so they are you know super healthy I mean they are trained and and therefore from a human aspect now that we're shifting from having those professional astronauts which again are the top of the top of the cream of the cream to not enabling anyone more or less to be able to space.

[00:24:33] That brings another sets of risk and considerations and so certainly with the emergence of the private astronauts the emergence of pretty soon or both commercial platform that will bring in a new set of risk and considerations because again so far our data is based on super well super healthy individual male and female now you bringing a new population which is more like a

[00:25:02] population which is more or less similar to Earth and if you're like you and I which are you know normal I mean the fact that we do our best to remain healthy nevertheless I mean that doesn't means that if we were let's assume that we were going through the selection to become an astronaut maybe we'll have at some point we will have to be not selected for health reasons right and so

[00:25:28] so that brings new type of considerations from health perspective but also from an ethical perspective.

[00:25:37] The past news I've been talking of all the issues related to the human health and again here we dealing with people which are super healthy and so what would be the impact on those individual which might have some underlying conditions and visitees and aging and so forth and so I create a new set of problems

[00:25:58] and not just from a health perspective but also from an ethical perspective and so certainly a lot of work needs to be done I mean I've been lucky to actually depart some projects through NASA gene lab so NASA gene lab is another databases that have most of the information so all mixed based information from either space bites and

[00:26:26] investigations or from experiment done on the ground where we simulate micro gravity variations and so forth and actually there's a big package coming up hopefully in a month or so from now which is related to inspiration for 30 so inspiration for was the first private mission that flew on SpaceX almost two years ago so an entrepreneur Jared Isaacman you know but the trip he had three other crew members it was a

[00:26:56] very short it was only three days mission however they're kind of high in an attitude which was about the ISS and so with Chris Mason's group which is better at well-known university and Ashwin Becherti which is in charge of the new to mix working group as part of NASA gene lab I mean we've been using that data sets as well as all the data from crew and astronauts and compare not just data coming from professional astronauts but also from the other

[00:27:26] also looking at data from a private astronauts and so this fact the fact that there's a long way to go to kind of better understand what is the impact on the general population now the fact that we're coming we starting to have more in the private mission locally we starting to get also data from those private astronauts and so I think that will enable us to kind of compare and inhibitors to kind of assess what are the risk to the general population but certainly still in a moment

[00:27:55] certainly still in emerging field and I think most of the we have to be done but as I mentioned earlier I mean there's a lot of issues related to human health and so having those private astronauts which again might be healthy for the general population but not has healthy as those professional astronauts bring another layers of issues and concerns.

[00:28:21] Thank you I mean when you when you hear about all what you've mentioned about the issues that can literally happen to a professional astronaut I'm wondering whether one day if they say guys we're going to explore the deep space and we're getting to take you all there.

[00:28:39] I'm not sure how quickly we'll be ready there right simply because it appears that it's very challenging and we still need to understand a lot about what would happen to the human body or someone who's not trained beyond this low Earth orbit and and beyond like going to Mars and the moon.

[00:29:00] But what's funny is or what's interesting is that we human beings might not be able to let's say adapt to this changing environment and harsh environments but microbes do microbes do have the ability to adapt and and you probably had some surprising findings up there in space what did you find and was surprising to you and probably used it on Earth as well.

[00:29:27] So indeed I mean the big question is adaptation versus acclimations and so what does I mean.

[00:29:36] Acclimation is more or less fine tuning your metabolism so fine tuning your genes to adapt and to cope with the environment where is adaptation you are more or less mutating your genome in a way where you're adding new functional.

[00:29:57] So that's the reality and so those two things were very important from the space microbiology perspective but let me back up a little bit again with been in space for other 60 years and so a lot of things have been done.

[00:30:13] And what we are learned so far is as follow one is that while in space or again like of gravity bacteria grow faster and what I mean faster is like that.

[00:30:27] Much faster again there's situation where it's not the case but the bulk of the other research shows that growth is promoted while while in space.

[00:30:39] Secondly which is interesting for many different aspects and again we'll come back into that is that bacteria seems to be more resistant to stresses and more resistant to antibiotics.

[00:30:57] Like of gravity seems to trigger biofimformation and then there was one study done quite some time ago in 2008 where they were using some money and so they grow some line space bring it back to the ground.

[00:31:12] The infected mice and compare it to some other that were grown in the ground and actually there's so that there was a 50% increase in mortality.

[00:31:23] From the bacteria they were flown in space so certainly there's some concerns there and then of course the host microbiome or host microbes is also altered as you can imagine and then.

[00:31:37] So a lot of people have been looking at is there a particular mechanism that the cells is adapting to the environment we think the adaptations or I cleabation it's more or less indirect through three dynamics.

[00:31:58] But I was part of the 38th University of Houston with actually I was during my PhD thesis with Professor Fox.

[00:32:06] Actually we were the first one to look at long duration adaptations up until that time bacteria were only grow like for day or two and certainly you could see some changes as opposed to to controls but we were the first one actually to grow those cells for one month continuously on the ground again here I'm talking about an experiment which but don't on the ground so you can simulate microgravity condition.

[00:32:33] And so we were using one of those apparatus and in this case was rotating wall vessel and what was striking is the following so.

[00:32:43] We shot them adaptation and so again we use a issue which are calling which is you know powerhouse microbes model organism so the short term adaptations we saw that the bacteria was very motile so bacteria during short term adaptation was very, very motile.

[00:33:02] As opposed to long term where we started to see biofimformation so it sounded like the transition from short term to long term led to the fact that initially the bacteria is kind of moving around trying to copy the environment whereas the most optimal path from an adaptation point of view was biofimformation.

[00:33:25] We looked at the genome of those organisms and actually we saw changes and so actually adaptation to long term simulated microgravity condition was not just phenotypic was also genomic so there was changes in the genome that we could clearly see from the adaptation of a collect to the microgravity condition.

[00:33:51] Similarly it sounds like the lack of gravity promote positive during transfer and also create another sets of issues and again here I'm just telling you another view of all microbes behave what we are learned so far but if you remember also mentioned that the crew is immoral compromise.

[00:34:15] So on one hand microbes grow faster seem to be more aggressive seems to be more resistant to stresses and until biotech seems to form biofimformation now your hand the crew is immoral compromise so as you can see when you measure those two you can have in some way perfect storms.

[00:34:34] And so until it is one risk I mean again there's many risk as we said we've run duration space flight but better understanding the host microbes.

[00:34:46] As an interaction I think it's key and I think most studies are needed into that area and so yes the cells are adapting that not just like copied with the other they are adapting and so clearly so changes into the genome but again most of these needs to be done to kind of.

[00:35:04] Better understand how those cells are adapting because on one hand certainly it's important to make sure the crew remain healthy because again the crew is immoral compromise but then you might need microbes for.

[00:35:18] For sustaining space exploration what do I mean by that well again I mean we are in a close system and so you might use microbes to recycle waters or.

[00:35:29] To perform what we call institute resuscitation which is more or less using institute resources to produce some compounds that could be useful it could be like oxygen production so it could be.

[00:35:41] Production of other compounds for example proportions and things like that to sustain exploration again it's very expensive to sign something with you and so by bringing in maybe microorganisms which were engineered to perform some specific task to sustain exploration I mean certainly this is very much repeating and so.

[00:36:00] From a micro group perspective I mean a lot of work needs to be done not just from making sure the crew remain healthy and making sure that we understand how microbes adapt to the specimen but again also there would be a need.

[00:36:16] To engineer those to be able to sustain those long duration space flights.

[00:36:22] Excellent as you said when you have a very adaptive micro and a very immune compromise astronaut you have the perfect storm but microbes they also have the potential to be also be a shield because on space there is not just only the micro gravity there is also this space radiation and UV exposure and so on.

[00:36:44] And you've successfully use this adaptation to UV to make something how to say making people look better or increasing the skin longevity can you tell us a little bit about this space technology that you manage to bring from space to actually put it into a cosmetic product what that what was the aim behind that.

[00:37:07] So again I mean I had a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny contribution I think I think cut so the event at this one at another job of nutrition laboratory which is a collaborator of mine for like many many years actually we started working together during my piece the thesis while in Houston and so.

[00:37:28] So the story started as follow and so as you know JPL is known for building rovers that explore other planets and therefore.

[00:37:44] There are a lot of work related to planetary protection.

[00:37:49] I briefly mentioned planetary protection earlier to kind of layout the type of activities that I am interested in or been working in and so let me back up a little bit here and find explains what those are and so.

[00:38:04] Pryantipotation is twofold it's for one for what contamination and backward contamination and again all that derived from the 1967 out of space treaty there's an article number nine not more less states that well if you planning to explore other planets or other words within the solar system you need to.

[00:38:26] Make the due diligence to kind of minimize numbers of earth based contaminant because you don't want to be in a situation where you have high tracker more or less you have a spacecraft that goes explore Mars you're looking for life and it's a there's life where I actually know you brought it so there's nothing is nothing an institute this is something that earth base right.

[00:38:46] So you want to you want to minimize those aspects and so for one contamination specifically address that element where.

[00:38:54] You take measure to minimize the microbled burden and so.

[00:38:59] There is a requirements that need to be followed and spacecraft need to be a standalone clean rooms and so.

[00:39:05] If you go to the green rooms you need to wear like a suit to cover your head cover your face etc to kind of minimize the microbled burden from yourself and then during the assembly I mean teams would be getting in and taking swabs from the spacecraft and so depending on where you're heading and so again here i'm looking from.

[00:39:29] Consideration related to life elsewhere right and so.

[00:39:34] If your rubber the spacecraft is going to the moon well okay the moon we understand it I mean relation to planetary protection it's not as high as Mars for example and so.

[00:39:46] As you know Mars is kind of closely related to earth it's all the version of earth it's very likely that early on I mean there was environmental conditions.

[00:40:00] That led to the fact one there was water to there was also.

[00:40:06] More habitable conditions.

[00:40:08] That could bring or might have brought or the existence of life on the planet right and so.

[00:40:19] When you're considering a rubber exploring and going to Mars then the strangencies of the level of bio burden is increasing dramatically.

[00:40:30] And again here i'm not talking again about life detection because that will require even more strange and consideration and so.

[00:40:39] So when you build a spacecraft then you are required and bound panor keep and monitor the environment of the clean room as well as the space and so.

[00:40:49] The team of cats or even catastron again another jp had isolated the.

[00:40:53] A basil is strange which is a basil is permulous.

[00:40:59] And actually I was involved actually I was involved initially in the sequencing of that microgonnaissance so when I was doing my PhD at university of Houston.

[00:41:11] I was one of the member that was doing the annotation and so that was the old days when we were performing analysis where actually that was done manually where now these days everything is automated and.

[00:41:23] Through programs and tools but at that time he was an interview before and so.

[00:41:29] So actually I contributed to the sequencing of that strands and what was striking is that when we were comparing and looking at the sequence of that strand which again was extremely resistant to UV radiation and what I say extreme means like extreme extreme and so.

[00:41:44] To give you some numbers I mean if you look at a closely related which is best set is so if there was so we were exposing it to UV radiation so UV radiation as you know I mean is a biosadol and so it's used to kind of kill things and.

[00:42:04] And so certainly when we ensemble spacecraft in clean rooms we have also regiments which is using radiation to minimize bio burden but also we use a direction per excited vapor to also try to kill has much micro organism the problem is that we are selected we selecting for trouble makers and.

[00:42:24] And that bacillus primilis is a trouble maker because actually learn how to so that at how should environment which means that despite all the effort to minimize the numbers of contaminants when we assemble and build spacecraft we are actually selecting.

[00:42:41] Organis that will survive the trip and and so again that brings an interesting paradox in some way anyway let's go back to that bacillus primilis I mean when we were exposing those to.

[00:42:54] To UV radiation and compare it to bacillus primilis it took 20 times more radiation to have similar survival rates that the bacillus primilis 20 times more radiation to have a similar rate of survival which is tremendous.

[00:43:20] But again we're talking about planet protection and so the question is is that strain able to survive not just the trip to Mars but also the also on us because as you know the.

[00:43:31] Martian environment is very different from earth used to have the used to be an atmosphere but then with time the atmosphere disappear and so now the surface level of Martian planet is bombarded with radiation and UV radiation particular.

[00:43:48] So even when we were simulating Mars condition so even when we were simulating the UV radiation that is present on Mars.

[00:43:58] That's strange was like a hundred times more resistant a thousand times actually more resistant than other other strains and so.

[00:44:07] Moving forward like again 20 plus years of research similarly I didn't tell you but we also I mean bankers group exposed that.

[00:44:18] Strange outside the intention space station so we have what we call exposed facility so strange was taking outside the intention space station exposed to vacuum or exposed to Martian condition for like 18 months.

[00:44:33] Strings came back to the ground and was able to grow no problem and so.

[00:44:39] Moving forward you know after 20 years of intensive research yes.

[00:44:43] We learn more about the strength and so indeed nowadays commercial product that came out and that product actually is based on components of that microganese which is again by say as per minutes and so those are what we call lysate so those are Sarah extract from the micro.

[00:45:05] And actually that said extracts have been known to actually reduce UV and use active oxygen species have been known to activate DNA repair have been known also to stimulate the yeah uroic acid production and so this is an important compound which is used for water retention also help promote skin stretches and flexibility and also.

[00:45:35] Reduce wrinkles and so all those elements are key elements against aging and so and so indeed a cream came out I guess a year ago now and derived from those 20 plus years of intensive research but again my contribution was minimum and all the all the.

[00:45:55] I can't.

[00:45:57] You know needs to go to country then cast one group that has a proportion laboratory.

[00:46:05] Excellent i mean when you know that a bacterium that's you know can survive hard conditions like that and and be more 1000 times you said more resistant you can only imagine what can this potential micro do to skin preventing it from those UV exposed.

[00:46:25] And so on thank you so much for taking us i mean honestly when I especially with your background i mean the background is literally space crafting and I don't know where you are now in which galaxy but I felt literally that I traveled with you to space and with all the knowledge you have shared with us so thank you so much.

[00:46:43] But I would I will not let you go before you answer this very quick questions that I asked to all the microbiomeverics and I believe the discussion we just had was definitely a memory discussion so number one why do you do what you do.

[00:47:02] I mean I think at the core is I am passionate about what I do and.

[00:47:10] But to be honest it took me a long time and and so I think it's also important to acknowledge that that some people grew up at early age and they definitely know what they want to do I mean for me when I grew up I wanted to go football player.

[00:47:31] I was not bad I was in the special program spirit you so which is sort of academy where half a day you do classes and half a day you do soccer.

[00:47:43] And actually I will not be here if I didn't enjoy myself and the reason being at that time I mean I was all about soccer not studying very much and and so unfortunately at some point I enjoy myself and so.

[00:47:58] Soccer became a hobby and then I started to study but even moving forward in at the university I mean I was more in hard science like physics and chemistry I was enjoying it at that time I was considering myself maybe becoming like a teacher some sorts.

[00:48:16] But I was doing it more or less from not from a passion point of view and so the patient related to space came much later on when I was at the international space university which is very incredible.

[00:48:38] And at that time I mean like media of us we dreamed about being involved with human space flight and dream also but maybe becoming an astronaut so there was maybe something that I had in mind I mean I did the selection back in 2008.

[00:48:56] Which was the first one within European space agency. I mean I was a candidate but obviously I didn't make the final cut actually Pesca was chosen at that time.

[00:49:06] So initially there was an interest related to that and but then yes I mean becoming an astronaut is more as the cherry on top of the cake.

[00:49:17] I think what it's important is that you need to find something you passionate about and so definitely I'm passionate about what I do and so again I mean my path towards my passion took a lot of time and so.

[00:49:32] At times again if if if early on you know what you want to do I think then you should go for it and so.

[00:49:39] For me it's a few fold I mean one is the excitement but be involved with human space flight who is also being a contributing factor I'm not just doing science for a second science I'm doing science to kind of contribute to human exploration which is very much exciting.

[00:49:57] I mean in some way in all of us there is that exploration.

[00:50:02] A holistic of us and which is affiliated with humanity and mankind and so I think for me there's also that element of excitement and passion to be able to contribute to address and mitigate those risk to be able to develop suitable content measures to make sure that human can be an interpreter.

[00:50:26] So for me again it's kind of being involved all that because to me it's very much an exciting field and enjoy very much and so.

[00:50:39] At the end of the day I think you need to find what drives you what you passionate about and then before it excellent can you share one productivity tip.

[00:50:48] I think being productive it's becoming more and more challenging and the reason being there's too many distractions and so.

[00:51:00] So I think focus is critical I think that we need to try to stay away from distraction on cell phone and strength devices and so forth but at the end of the day I mean to be productive you need to remain healthy okay and so what does that mean well you.

[00:51:18] You need to have your seven or eight hours of sleep which is critical you need to exercise which is also important and then and then it's a me.

[00:51:31] As many in your shows I mean you emphasize of the fact that healthy diet is also key and so yeah so to be productive again is focusing trying to stay away from distractions and then.

[00:51:45] And then trying to to have a healthy life and so I think probably those would be key things to be able to remain and stay productive.

[00:51:56] Do you have a book that you love to share with someone?

[00:52:01] I'm not a big reader or I mean like I do read a lot of scientific papers but not pretty much a big reader I mean this one which could recommend which was interesting.

[00:52:15] It's called agarith to live by and so that's Brian Christians and top some grievance and so I think that was an interesting one.

[00:52:24] The other one which is related to our discussion it's called the distracted mind and so that's from Adam ghazly and Larry Rosen which I enjoy very much and then something which could be useful for people which might help them it's called limitless by Jean quick and so I think it's a helpful book.

[00:52:45] I kind of provide some guidelines about how to optimize optimize yourself and so those are kind of some some of the recommendations and then you know there's also books related to your own self because again we're not perfect and parents when they're perfect the grandparents when I'm perfect and so we are not perfect and as an individual and I think also it's important to find to address some of the.

[00:53:12] Issues that we have and as an individual to try to become a better person then so so there's also you know books related to one of which called no more mr nice guy which I enjoyed and so that was an interesting book by Robert Glover and so against trying to kind of better understand who you are as an individual and try to be able to reconnect with with your true self and so I think both.

[00:53:42] Those would be the things that have been reading recently and that could be often trusted to the audience there will be definitely interest to me as well thank you can you tell us about someone that inspires you.

[00:53:58] Different questions I mean of course family and mom in particular she's a rock star and and certainly she's been an inspiration for.

[00:54:14] My I have an uncle which is a MD in so certainly he's show kind of the path that you can be successful by going to school and studying very hard.

[00:54:27] I mean again I don't consider myself a smart person however I'm a hard worker and and so I think my mom certainly I've been I've been someone which was very inspirational but then I was also surrounded by.

[00:54:43] I was extremely talented individuals throughout my career I mean certainly when I was a graduate students doing my PhD I was also working under the direction of George Fox and so many know him because in the mid 70s him and Woose he actually revolutionized the field of biology

[00:55:03] and so at that time they added a new kingdom in the tree of life with Akia and and so certainly he was very much inspirational when I was at NASA Johnson Space Center I was closely working with the flat surgeon at the time his name is Jeffrey Jones now he's a faculty at better college medicine but he's also a surgeon at the VA which is the

[00:55:27] military affairs and he also been very much impacting who I am as an individual as a scientist and then as I mentioned I mean I've been working closely with cut so even cut this one at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory I'm in for the past over 15 years and he's certainly also been someone which impacted and influenced me as an individual as human being but also as a scientist.

[00:55:55] Excellent last question if you would help to change something on this world what would that be?

[00:56:04] Difficult questions I mean certainly addressing on the environmental as well as climate related issues I mean it is important and critical but then also addressing poverty

[00:56:23] I think that's something that certainly I am very keen and so yeah climate channel properties I mean those would be too too many if I have to choose one then poverty.

[00:56:40] Thank you so much for today that's definitely an inspirational discussion thank you so much for being such nice guests to share in your know let about space flights and environment and microbiome

[00:56:51] and we were very glad having you as a part of the microbiome outbreaks thank you so much.

[00:56:58] Pleasure is on mine and thank you again and it was a delight to be able to talk to you about some of the things that I've been working on but my point of need to be able to stimulate the youth of the fact that everything is possible we need more students we need more talented individuals to kind of work in those fields because lots work needs to be done.

[00:57:21] I think this is a very much exciting discipline and so again thanks for the opportunity.

[00:57:29] My pleasure thank you.