The Yanomami Legacy: Protecting Ancestral Knowledge and the Microbiome with David Good

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Microbiome Mavericks Podcast, the only place where microbiome science meets real-world applications.

[00:00:06] I am your host Dr. Amine Zorgani, a microbiome expert on a mission to prevent the human microbiome from extension.

[00:00:13] Today we journey deep into the Amazon rainforest and the world of the Yanomami people through the remarkable story of David Good.

[00:00:21] David, founder of the Yanomami Foundation, shared his personal quest to rediscover his roots,

[00:00:26] the challenges faced by his endogenous family and how this journey fueled his passion for microbiome research.

[00:00:34] From profound cultural insight to critical environmental concerns, this episode offers a unique perspective

[00:00:41] on how ancient wisdom and modern science converge in one of the world's most isolated communities.

[00:00:50] Tune in for an unforgettable story of resilience, rediscovery and scientific curiosity.

[00:00:58] Enjoy the episode and please follow and share. Happy to hear your thoughts and stay positive.

[00:01:07] Good afternoon wherever you are and welcome to the new episode of the Microbiome Mavericks.

[00:01:12] Today I have the very best pleasure to have with me David Good, the founder of the Yanomami Foundation,

[00:01:18] and a very interesting person to talk to. And I think I'm very, how to say, pleased to have David with us on this new episode of the Microbiome Mavericks.

[00:01:28] And I hope you as listeners will enjoy it the same way as I'm sure I'm going to enjoy it. David, welcome to the Microbiome Mavericks.

[00:01:34] Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to a great conversation.

[00:01:38] Absolutely. And as you say, it's the Microbiome Mavericks.

[00:01:41] The Mavericks has a real good meaning because everyone who comes in this show is definite Maverick.

[00:01:47] You're coming from looking at the microbiome from a different lens, a lens that is personal to you and a lens that is scientific about one of the most fascinating field, which is the microbiome.

[00:02:00] And the third lens, which is the danger of this extension of microbes or missing microbes that this new life that we're living in,

[00:02:09] in the industrialized population are living. And you're comparing it to a very unique population that you're going to talk to us about it, the Yanomami.

[00:02:17] So please tell us a little bit about yourself, your roots and how you come into this kind of field of microbiome.

[00:02:24] Yeah, sure. You know, usually when I kind of give this backstory, there's three main story arcs.

[00:02:31] One is, you know, kind of who I am as a half Yanomami, half, you know, outsider Nava.

[00:02:36] And then how I came to rediscover my indigenous heritage and wanting to play a role in helping my Yanomami family combat some of the challenges that they're facing today surrounding the Amazonian ecosystem.

[00:02:50] And then that kind of segues into how I started getting involved in microbiome research and how I became a PhD student at University of Guelph.

[00:03:01] So I guess, you know, every story, I guess, has an origin story, a backstory.

[00:03:06] So I can start mine with my parents.

[00:03:08] And my dad was an American anthropologist who was doing his PhD in the 70s at Penn State University under the eminent Napoleon Shagnon, then later with Dr. Marvin Harris at University of Florida.

[00:03:21] And during that time, you know, the Yanomami people were popularized as one of the world's last relatively minimally impacted, isolated, you know, indigenous societies.

[00:03:33] And they have not had major impact from colonization, from contact from non-Yanomami people.

[00:03:41] And the reason being is because, you know, they're located in the Amazon rainforest of southern Venezuela, northern Brazil and originated in the Parima highlands.

[00:03:49] And it's argued that there's no major water routes that penetrate into that area.

[00:03:53] So, you know, when the Congistadors came and in 1400s, 1500s, it was really, really difficult to penetrate into the heart of that territory.

[00:04:02] So I think that contributed as to why the Yanomami remained relatively isolated for so long.

[00:04:08] And then sustained western contact was made in the 60s by missionaries.

[00:04:13] And then after that, all these, you know, scientists and researchers really wanted to get an opportunity to study, you know, this is really unique people.

[00:04:22] And when my dad went down there, you know, he found a, you know, coming from Philadelphia, you know, he found a society that had a non-literate, their non-literate society in form of language.

[00:04:34] So everything that they know and their knowledge is passed down orally from their, you know, cycles of the rainforest, their mythologies and everything, their skills.

[00:04:42] So they're a non-literate society.

[00:04:45] They had a counting system of one, two and many.

[00:04:47] So mahu, poro capu, bruca.

[00:04:50] So, and they lived everything that they needed to survive from the, that they need was extracted from the surrounding rainforest.

[00:04:58] And they lived this life based on reciprocity, a very communal like lifestyle where they live under the same shop and all thatch roof.

[00:05:04] And, and the men would hunt, the women with crab and garden and together they were, the whole village would raise families.

[00:05:12] And, and so he found a people that really, you know, it fell in love with and became enamored with.

[00:05:19] So as an anthropologist, he was supposed to study hunting patterns and dietary intake and kind of, you know, kind of extrapolate from that research to explain why they behave a certain way or their hunting patterns and their warfare.

[00:05:34] But he realized that to truly get to know people, well, you can't just, you know, collect some data in a, in a couple of weeks or a month or even a few months and then come up with this like, you know, scientific conclusion as to why these people are the way they are.

[00:05:49] It's just not possible.

[00:05:50] He had to learn the language and in order to learn the language, it takes a lot of time to get to know the Yanomami.

[00:05:56] So what was supposed to be a 15 month research program ended up being 12 years.

[00:06:01] Yeah.

[00:06:01] With the Yanomami.

[00:06:02] Amazing.

[00:06:02] Yeah.

[00:06:02] In Venezuela.

[00:06:04] So he stayed with a community known as Hasapuwe.

[00:06:07] And that is where he met my mom during that span.

[00:06:10] And so my mom took a liking to my dad and, and just as much as she showed him her world of the Yanomami.

[00:06:18] He wanted to show her his world of the United States and beyond.

[00:06:21] And so according to Yanomami customs, they got married and it is customary for the wife to move in to the husband's village.

[00:06:28] But, you know, my mom had no idea where my dad came from.

[00:06:32] you know the whole world was the tropical rainforest and so when she left the rainforest

[00:06:39] and when she arrived finally in the united states she had experienced you know great culture shock

[00:06:45] and and it could have been it must have been so bizarre for her i i don't know if you know that scene

[00:06:51] you know in star wars where you know luke skywalker goes into the cantina and sees like all this weird

[00:06:58] music weird aliens you know that's i was thinking maybe that's what it was like for my mom you know

[00:07:03] seeing they must we must have looked like aliens to her and all the different things so um but she uh

[00:07:12] you know she um adopted you know rather well she started learning a little english and spanish but

[00:07:18] she never really truly you know felt at home here and she missed uh calling upon her family go crabbing

[00:07:23] and hunting and and so what was a you know we were supposed to live between you know for the

[00:07:28] first five years of my life i was born soon after she arrived and i have a younger brother and younger

[00:07:33] sister and we moved back and forth between the united states and amazon and but it got more complicated

[00:07:39] and more expensive for my father to be able to coordinate these trips uh so unfortunately when

[00:07:44] i was five my mom made a very difficult decision uh she just couldn't handle it anymore in in this in

[00:07:50] this you know world of the nava and she separated from the family and she remained in the jungle

[00:07:55] and i remained up here and that would be the last time i would see my mom for for 20 years

[00:08:00] oh my god yeah so at five years old i i lost my mom and i couldn't understand why i mean i'm a five

[00:08:07] year old kid from suburban new jersey how am i supposed to truly understand the nuances of you know culture shock

[00:08:14] and and what my mom was was dealing with so um i just internalized it as abandonment and and so for the

[00:08:21] next 20 years i struggled with trying to figure out who i was as a yanomami american why my mother left

[00:08:28] who are the yanomami people you know what and and and really going through a lot of this you know so many

[00:08:34] questions so many questions yeah but then when i got older and i graduated college um with a bachelor's

[00:08:40] in biology i i came to a point in my life where i was at peace with why my mom left and forgave her

[00:08:46] and and started to understand who i was as a yanomami american and my unique ancestry so i decided that

[00:08:53] well the next step in my life is to go back to the amazon and find my mother and and i decided in 2011

[00:08:59] to embark on that quest on that mission and of course i couldn't have been able to do that with

[00:09:04] a team of people helping me out and um and in particular uh dr hortense caballero is a venezuelan

[00:09:10] anthropologist who also studied the yanomami and she took me under her wing in 2011 and together

[00:09:15] we went up to uh and and to find and reunite with my mom so you know people ask me oh you know

[00:09:24] what's it like to go visit your mom it's not like we can just buy you know i can go to speedy.com

[00:09:30] and buy a flight to uh absolutely yeah yeah so i um i uh uh just to put it in a nutshell you know you

[00:09:38] have to fly you know we don't have any um political diplomatic relationships right now with the

[00:09:43] venezuelan government so there are no direct flights and you know into venezuela from the us so i have to

[00:09:48] fly in from another country and then we um take a caravan to a military base and we take a flight

[00:09:54] deep into the jungle um to uh to a military compound there and then we get to uh get on a

[00:10:00] boat and it's about five days going up the odinoco river and um you know there could be all kinds of

[00:10:06] challenges you know with weather um and with um equipment malfunctions or the river being too low

[00:10:11] or too high or whatever and then of course we have to cross the graha depo rapids which is an

[00:10:15] infamous set of rapids that my father once capsized there um while he was sick with malaria and i had some

[00:10:21] my close calls there as well over the years and then when you get closer and closer to where my

[00:10:26] mom's village would be the yanomami are semi-nomadic people so they sort of mostly survive by a small

[00:10:34] scale horticulture they they cultivate manioc and plantains and other things so but the gardens only

[00:10:39] yield enough food for two to three years so they're constantly moving around in the village or in the

[00:10:44] in the amazon so i don't know where my mom is every time i have to go in there she could be on the

[00:10:48] river she can be deep in the jungle she moved to a completely part of the end there is no like a gps

[00:10:53] or mother you can locate yeah i can't say you know i can't call up and say mom i'm coming can you just

[00:10:58] stay in one pot you know can you stop being semi-nomadic just for a couple of weeks um but yeah so

[00:11:07] i uh um so that's kind of the journey it takes you know um to get to my mom's village and in 2011

[00:11:14] fascinating yeah yeah and in 2011 i entered hasapuwei um and uh and my mom was out collecting

[00:11:23] plantains and i was in the in the village waiting for her and after about an hour and a half she

[00:11:28] finally arrived and she walked into the village and i stood up and and i walked towards her and and i

[00:11:34] instantly recognized her and she recognized me and even though she couldn't speak english and i couldn't

[00:11:39] speak you know what was clear was that the love between a mother and son is could never be absolutely

[00:11:45] so i put my hand on her shoulder and said hey mom it's me david your son and i'm home and yeah

[00:11:51] we both just kind of broke down and embraced each other crying yeah it's um you gave me goosebumps

[00:11:57] really yeah like just listening to you uh in total honestly i was completely ignorant on

[00:12:02] the difficulties of someone to get from whatever place in the planet to um the amazons and to this

[00:12:11] i call them like very how to say prestigious populations in my opinion because um their

[00:12:17] populations that probably in my opinion they weren't damaged with this industry that living that we are

[00:12:24] living in um it's is just mind-blowing to me uh as a story and i think it's uh definitely worth the

[00:12:32] good product that you actually uh created right so what's this good product that you had was it

[00:12:38] before your first trip or after yeah yeah so um you know i grew up reading the books from shagnon

[00:12:48] and jacques liseau and my father and understanding who the yanamami were as the sort of i would say

[00:12:53] the tail end of classical anthropologists studying the yanamami in the in the 50s 60s and 70s

[00:12:58] and when i arrived and met my mom and you know and at that moment i didn't care you know why she left

[00:13:05] or what had happened all that matter was that she was alive and we were going to start a new relationship

[00:13:10] and pick up where we left off 20 years ago but um i also you know rediscovered my heritage as a

[00:13:18] yanamami you know i i i thought you know i spent 20 years rejecting my heritage and now i just want to

[00:13:24] learn everything about the hunting and fishing and learning the language and and just engaging in

[00:13:29] their rituals and and i found myself truly truly you know at home and which i was you know i have

[00:13:34] i have uncles and aunts and cousins and and so on so i was immediately plugged into their kinship network

[00:13:40] um however as i spent more time and you know among the yanamami and the amazon i also began to learn more

[00:13:46] of the uh some serious you know challenges that they're facing with and i think one of the biggest is the

[00:13:52] the invasion of illegal gold miners that are entering in all parts of the amazon and brazil and venezuela

[00:13:58] um and the governments aren't you know they're trying but they're not doing a really good job of

[00:14:02] protecting the yanamami people and um and so the miners come in and they destroy large swaths of of

[00:14:09] of land uh to um then they're like wildcat miners they use mercury to be able to you know um to to

[00:14:16] extract the gold from from the amagam and um and then uh they poison the waters with mercury there's

[00:14:23] a lot of violent you know comfort confrontations killing yanamami people and um they bring diseases

[00:14:29] and they're bringing alcohol they're bringing prostitution and and i recognize that you know

[00:14:34] who the yanamami were or how they were portrayed in the 1950s and 60s it's not the same you know they

[00:14:40] they're under threat they're under they're under attack and their land is under threat and i'm

[00:14:45] grateful that my family's village um is very remote and isolated so they're not exactly impacted but when

[00:14:52] you read in the news of all these other communities they're highly highly impacted yeah and so we're

[00:14:58] experiencing things um more introduction of diseases where communities are being devastated by

[00:15:03] measles tuberculosis and and coven 19 now and um 19 yeah and certain yeah so the miners are bringing that

[00:15:11] as well and then there's um another another aspect of what i learned is that the yanamami aren't the

[00:15:19] you know how i described who they are it's not the same throughout the entire population you know

[00:15:23] they their their territory that spans between venezuela and brazil uh comprises roughly 35 000 yanamami

[00:15:30] people and among hundreds of communities so yanamami communities like mine are different from those that

[00:15:36] have had sustained contact for half a century in brazil and venezuela they're different those that live

[00:15:42] near missions and schools and medical centers those that live near you know kind of shanty towns and markets

[00:15:47] so i'm recognizing that um you know the who the yanamami are they're very dynamic people and uh care you

[00:15:56] know being um exposed to all kinds of challenges and one of those is cultural degradation uh i think

[00:16:02] you know yeah the yanamami um are recognizing that they're now part of this you know planet that's

[00:16:09] comprised of all different kinds of countries and governments and policies and they want to have a voice

[00:16:13] in the international stage and of course uh they want to learn how to read and write in portuguese and

[00:16:20] spanish it's just the basic human right you know um and now they want to become and learn the skills of

[00:16:25] being medics and doctors and and school teachers which is great and it's phenomenal however we you

[00:16:31] know we can't um ignore the fact that there's this process of transculturation is going to result in

[00:16:36] this risk or potential risk of losing their traditional and ancestral knowledge absolutely

[00:16:42] absolutely i think um it's you know whatever he brings uh um human beings and their uh culture

[00:16:51] usually either they take it over or they just at least transform whatever is there so

[00:16:55] it's the risk is there obviously so yeah and so there's nothing really new happening under the sun with

[00:17:01] the yanamami it's just that they happen to be one of the latest casualties right you know native

[00:17:06] indigenous groups that are and peoples that are um you know uh that are experiencing threats and loss

[00:17:12] of language and culture and lands so however i think it's because of because they remain so isolated

[00:17:18] for so long it's just the comparison the juxtaposition of their way of life and then comparing that to

[00:17:24] someone in new york city it's just yeah you know so you know opposite of each other and but the thing is

[00:17:31] when i look at my family and when i look at the yanamami people uh just as my father did i found

[00:17:37] a people that are happy they're healthy they're strong um you know they don't they have the ultimate

[00:17:43] food security right they don't have to choose between good food or bad food or junk food it's all

[00:17:48] good food yeah it's all food so they don't have to be worried about preservatives or our food colorants

[00:17:54] and dyes and all kinds of chemicals and and stuff that's being you know at a at a mass scale um that

[00:18:01] are you know perturbing or um our food supply so i'm looking at my family wow they are strong they're

[00:18:07] healthy and they have a very you know um uh healthy food system and so i'm thinking like okay and i also

[00:18:15] am coming from the united states and this western world and and i feel grateful that i'm the only

[00:18:21] member of my community other than my siblings that has been raised and educated western society so i can

[00:18:26] i can see the implications of you know the urbanization process the westernization process

[00:18:31] and true and so that's why i felt like putting this all together that i wanted to play a bigger

[00:18:36] role and that's why my friends and i and my colleagues and i founded um the good project

[00:18:40] back in 2013 it has been uh we change our name now to the yanamami foundation it's just sort of better

[00:18:47] represent our mission yep and so i figured what can i do and or what can we do and we you know we

[00:18:53] decided to work directly with the yanamami communities to equip their communities with

[00:18:58] all kinds of resources and tools that they need to help not only protect their way of life but to

[00:19:03] fight back against illegal gold miners and that can mean that that's a project by project community

[00:19:08] by community basis so it could be a health project like delivering mosquito nets that are

[00:19:12] to communities that have high rates of malaria or solar panels and batteries and and and sat coms

[00:19:18] to medical clinics that need um support and being able to monitor the health situations or to be

[00:19:24] able to report out to the world that there are miners that are infiltrating the lands and then lastly um

[00:19:30] you know well then the next thing and hopefully it's not the last project is that we realized that

[00:19:34] through my connection to the yanamami people and a very special highly skilled team that we have unique

[00:19:40] access to their microbiome so we facilitate research expeditions in venezuela and brazil um because we are that

[00:19:48] unique connection directly with the yanamami people on the ground and now that is some of the things that

[00:19:53] we're doing today is facilitating this very unique pioneering discovery research of the yanamami microbiome

[00:20:00] that's definitely a very nice transition obviously to this aim of this conversation uh is around the

[00:20:08] the preservation of this microbiome right so but starting with its diversity so as you know many

[00:20:14] research few very good reports have been published uh mentioning that the yanamami and the hunter gatherers

[00:20:23] tribes they have a very unique microbiome that is highly diverse some reports even mentioned the

[00:20:30] latest i think was from justin sannenberg's lab looking at 732 different strains more in the yanamami

[00:20:38] than they would been in people from california i think what's the secret why i mean

[00:20:46] what you said they all food is good food but tell us a little bit more about that one because i think

[00:20:53] everyone is interested to have more diverse microbiome that's absolutely yeah i mean that's the that's sort

[00:20:58] of the um the mantra right diversity is bad and and um and uh uh so yeah on the back of these previous

[00:21:08] researchers that are kind of looking preliminarily into the diversity of the microbiome of the yanamami

[00:21:13] yeah we're seeing that they have one of the diverse microbiomes you know in any recorded human group

[00:21:20] um and so uh in 2018 and in subsequent trips in brazil you know we were able to collect skin and

[00:21:28] uh stool samples and and uh in our lab we're doing some preliminary work we're doing some sequencing

[00:21:33] and and analyzing uh these samples but i'll get more into that later but yeah so what it's funny

[00:21:40] because i you know when i was first introduced in the microbiome field which was just relatively

[00:21:45] recently only like four or five years ago not too long ago um because i was actually on track i really

[00:21:51] wanted to go to medical school and do tropical medicine i thought that was my path to help my family

[00:21:55] and the people uh but now my path is um you know visiting them and asking them for a stool sample so

[00:22:03] we're going on a different path but it's all for their absolutely absolutely um yeah so the yanomami

[00:22:09] uh and and this is how i'm describing it you know when i see the yanomami live day in and day out

[00:22:15] you know they they they live immersed there is no kind of separation from the natural environment there's

[00:22:21] no like nature right there's no like nature not nature it's just not not not the way we see it here

[00:22:26] and they live in the soil immersed into the surrounding rainforest um uh they live open air on

[00:22:32] and they share a roof and everything they eat is um either cultivated in their garden so they have a high

[00:22:39] intake of dietary fiber lots of dietary fiber through plantains and manioc and so on so plantains is is

[00:22:46] um uh it's a resistant starch uh which you know reaches resist this is digestion in the small

[00:22:51] intestine and reaches the uh large intestine which allows for um which is a substrate for fermentation

[00:22:57] for the microbes there yeah and the yanomami eat plantains every day morning it's just uh so in which

[00:23:04] like um this is the first time i hear about this one right so in which type of plants you will find it

[00:23:10] here instead of there would you find planting in any other plants that we you uh we and you consume

[00:23:18] on a regular basis could consume other plants other than plantains um yeah yeah no like like any

[00:23:26] similar types of plants that would be closer to plantings oh you mean in um here up here yeah well

[00:23:33] i mean the thing is like obviously we have you know bananas and and whatnot but uh the thing is the

[00:23:39] yanomami eat green plantains so they don't they don't wait till it's ripe because i see yeah the

[00:23:43] the resistant starch um heart you know turns into a simple sugar when it becomes ripe so and i think

[00:23:49] you know eating that many plantains ripe bananas would make you sick after a while but that's so the idea

[00:23:54] is that you know i think you know dietary fiber resistant starch is their principal uh dietary intake and

[00:24:01] this is among the yanomami in in venezuela you know there's different subgroups all throughout the

[00:24:06] territory this is what i know here um other groups uh are learning to eat like manioc uh or the yuca

[00:24:12] and other you know tubercles and root vegetables and roots but they also are opportunistic foragers

[00:24:18] so whenever they go walk from from their village to the garden or to go fishing or to go hunting

[00:24:24] you know they they look around and if there's mushrooms you know the harvest mushrooms or maybe

[00:24:30] there's a beehive you know that is ready to harvest matured uh all kinds of nuts and berries and fruits

[00:24:36] so they're they are foragers you know they're hunter gatherers um and they're horticulturalists

[00:24:41] and then everything in terms of hunting is they use the bow and arrow to hunt all kinds of game anywhere

[00:24:47] from monkeys to capybara to snakes like anacondas and boa constrictors um you know if it moves you can

[00:24:55] eat it basically so lizards iguanas yeah so and and what's nice is that whenever they kill a monkey

[00:25:02] or capybara or peccary we know that whatever that animal is eaten is pure right extracted from them

[00:25:07] yeah absolutely so that idea of their you know their diet um is is you know clean let's just say

[00:25:12] that and it's and and um and high dietary fiber and what's interesting about the yanomami is that

[00:25:18] they never eat meat by itself it's taboo they can never take a piece of meat um and eat it like that

[00:25:23] they have to accompany it with some kind of starchy food like a plantain or maybe mani rock or something

[00:25:29] so which is interesting because i know the yanomami are thinking like okay well you know it's not good

[00:25:34] for my microbiome to eat just this meat i should eat some fiber with it as well but i bet yeah i bet

[00:25:39] collectively you know through social evolution they understood that this food the plantain is

[00:25:45] probably what makes you healthy and it's what feeds you that's my speculation there um yeah and then

[00:25:52] secondarily they don't have you know they don't use broad spectrum antibiotics um you know that's

[00:25:58] obviously a fairly new thing in human human evolution are they are they medicated like do

[00:26:03] they get any sort of medication like we do something you know yeah plants ethnobotany for sure um but they

[00:26:10] believe uh mainly in and animism so it's a form of spiritualism where everything is controlled by some

[00:26:15] kind of animal spirit um and so there is no um you know xenobiotics really um among my family and then

[00:26:24] um the other factor that we think about you know diversity is uh um there's no c-sections so

[00:26:31] they everything that they um all their 100 of their births are are done in the garden is in the ground

[00:26:37] um so there are no c-sections where you miss out on that initial inoculation from the vaginal canal

[00:26:42] um i mean the list goes on and on you know stress this idea of stress you know this urbanized society

[00:26:48] where we're just constantly connected yeah connected and uh well through our connection i feel like we've

[00:26:53] never been so disconnected you know as a people as a humanity yeah um and then uh but that you know they

[00:27:00] don't they don't have that type of stress you have different kinds of stress which i think we were

[00:27:04] evolved to have like oh how are we going to get food today or this animal's gonna hurt me or

[00:27:09] you know or things like that that's the stuff that our minds are meant to deal with things like taxes

[00:27:15] and and things and other things you know uh we're not meant to deal with um so uh anyway this is all

[00:27:23] the reason why i'm saying all of this because if you if you google this and look at a map between like

[00:27:28] the stresses of western industrialized societies you know what causes microbial reduction microbial

[00:27:34] diversity you know biotics processed foods and things like that none of that is found in my family

[00:27:40] right so i think that is the reason why all these factors are why they have some of the most robust

[00:27:46] and diverse microbiomes in the world absolutely and i think um it also reflects um their way of living

[00:27:53] as you said it's not just food it's also the way of living i i recall a documentary i've seen or

[00:27:59] also read about it a lot this as i told you before just this called this blue zones where we have the

[00:28:05] people living 100 year plus and so on and one of the research was done on the sardinia um region

[00:28:12] which is also known for being a blue zone and the research actually all pointed to the fact that most of

[00:28:19] the people that live longer like 100 year plus they all live uphill or downhill so they have always to

[00:28:26] go from point a to point b uphill always so the exercise they do is significantly higher compared

[00:28:33] to you and me who are probably sitting on like i'm sitting on this chair since like i think yeah 8am and

[00:28:39] still stuck on it so we're very sedentary people we don't exercise a lot obviously we don't take that much

[00:28:46] of fibers and we take a lot of crap on the side which basically all this processed food that we do

[00:28:52] unfortunately because the society is done that way however exercise and movement plays a significant

[00:28:58] role from what you're saying the fact they are gardening they do the garden themselves they plan

[00:29:04] their plants they hunt for the food they eat and they you know it's it's it's all exercise isn't it

[00:29:11] oh yeah for sure i mean i here i try to go to the gym and i recognize that you know if of all of my

[00:29:17] intense gym workouts it does not it does not even get close to the exercise or what we would call

[00:29:23] exercise you know that um that my mom does on a daily basis right chopping down trees collecting

[00:29:29] firewood fishing gutting animals hunting and they do it together right they always do it as a family

[00:29:34] you know it's not like exercise is like um just like sort of like another goal another checkbox

[00:29:39] right a list of things to do in our stressful life you know they they don't they don't

[00:29:43] know yanamami never has to say oh i really need to do more exercise you know no physical condition

[00:29:50] optimum health and um and so yeah i agree and but they do it communally as as a people and and i and

[00:29:56] i try to translate that a little bit in my life here you know where you know um try to uh um socialize

[00:30:03] you know do things in a more social as a social way like going out to lunch you know when i'm going

[00:30:08] on the lunch break but going to lunch break with you know with some of your classmates your

[00:30:11] colleagues you know because i know i can be on the go it's like all right i don't have time for

[00:30:15] lunch break just gonna grab a bagel and eat this bagel by myself yeah you know the yanamami

[00:30:19] they're spiritually connected to the foods that they eat you know i'm not i can't have a peer

[00:30:23] so um things like that and um and i think that's important that is important i agree with you 100

[00:30:28] and those are all factors i think that you know uh help the yanamami um be healthy the way they are

[00:30:36] mentally psychologically spiritually physically um and you know my father used to say that you know

[00:30:42] he for him he experienced the essence of what it is to be a human being among the yanamami

[00:30:47] amazing we you've mentioned about the yanamami foundation today that one of part of the the work

[00:30:52] you're doing is also facilitating these expeditions to uh about do science about the microbiome you're all

[00:30:59] you yourself are doing this in your phd you've mentioned earlier looking into stool samples and skin

[00:31:04] microbiome what have you found so far what was the most striking um let's say finding that you found

[00:31:10] so far in this kind of yeah well what's interesting is the high diversity that we've seen in our samples

[00:31:16] is a you know it's um uh you know similar to that that we find in other um isolated or indigenous

[00:31:24] hunter-gatherer or horticulturalist groups like the hatza and the tzimane you know where uh we can find

[00:31:31] that there they have a type of uh microbial profile that is more towards uh an enrichment of microbes

[00:31:40] that break down complex carbohydrates so you've got your um private tellas for example you have a

[00:31:46] higher firmicure ratio to bacteroides and um and so on and uh and what's interesting we see presence of

[00:31:52] trepanines you know it's another unique micro microbe that has been you know extinct you know or vanished

[00:31:58] you know in in our um you know western industrialized societies but are still you know present and and

[00:32:05] um in the people like the yanomami and the hots and the semenin but um and so uh another thing is

[00:32:12] is not looking at just what's there but what they're doing and so when we run um you know sort of we look

[00:32:18] at some of their functional profiles as well and we you know some of one of our colleagues has looked at

[00:32:22] real quickly real quickly preliminary look at their kazine profiles so the enzymes that you know break

[00:32:27] down carbohydrates and they have a much higher enrichment of kazines that break down plant-based

[00:32:32] carbohydrates and you compare that to the profile someone that's living in in in the us or urbanized

[00:32:39] society where they have a much higher enrichment of uh kazines that break down animal-based carbohydrates

[00:32:44] so it goes to show that you know we're not eating enough you know plants and plant-based foods and

[00:32:48] you know more meat and and processed foods so um so those are some of the things that we're looking at

[00:32:54] but what i what um at least bioinformatically and and we could go into more but one thing i you know what

[00:33:01] i'm really liking about my program is that you know at uh the laboratory of the mal and burko here at

[00:33:06] university of guelph we specialize in culturing microbes so um and i really appreciate uh um this tool

[00:33:15] which is the robo gut system that simulates the conditions of the distal colons it's um it's a

[00:33:21] continuous flow um chemostat bioreactor and and i'm sure uh as you know already and and so as we as we uh

[00:33:28] simulate the conditions of this colon we can inoculate it with the yanomami fecal community to

[00:33:34] recapitulate the microbial ecosystem or as much close as we can and then we can grow it and then now and as we

[00:33:41] can grow these microbes we can culture it and then we isolate and and identify them in our um anaerobic

[00:33:47] system chambers and what's really interesting is that we are finding bugs that that aren't in the

[00:33:53] debate database we don't know what they are and we've isolated thousands of strains so far amazing

[00:33:58] hundreds of them are potentially novels novel species even novel uh um genera and and so we're

[00:34:05] we're really it's like we're we're landing on a very exciting yeah very very exciting yeah and so

[00:34:11] my research is um uh i'm using the tool to look at how diet is going to affect the microbial ecosystem

[00:34:18] so think of the robo gut is just some very basic you know in vitro model of the yanomami microbiome

[00:34:23] so what if i were to challenge that model um uh by industrializing or urbanizing it and so what i mean

[00:34:31] is that we have a media feed that mimics the yanomami as best as we can it's a model of the yanomami diet

[00:34:36] to feed this yanomami ecosystem now what if i were to switch that to a western diet so you can think

[00:34:42] of it as like a yanomami that leaves the rainforest and starts eating you know the cheeseburgers and

[00:34:47] the you know and all those processed foods and then you know um and then what happens to the microbial

[00:34:52] diversity so i'm looking at how diet influences the the composition and the functional profile of

[00:34:56] the yanomami microbiome and then can we recover it so if we lose all kinds of diverse diverse microbes

[00:35:04] uh vanished microbes can they come back you know and of course the idea is is that are there any kinds of

[00:35:10] microbes or consortium microbes of the yanomami microbiome that could engraft in some let's say

[00:35:16] someone living in new york city you know it's a very dangerous game to play because these microbes

[00:35:20] evolve with the yanomami but hey that's part of science right and that's what's great about the

[00:35:24] in vitro model is that we're not hurting anybody right we're using all these kinds of tools to

[00:35:29] to do all these different kinds of unique projects so yeah when you say about uh this viticulture of

[00:35:36] the yanomami uh microbes and potentially trying to see whether the food could play a role into bringing

[00:35:44] them back or actually taking them down if we speak about the junk food that probably will be tested or

[00:35:48] you are already testing and one day i think i've shared a post on linkedin about um the fact that

[00:35:54] henry gatherer tribes they have very present microbes and one of the comments came and said okay

[00:36:00] great i mean what if we take stool samples from the henry gatherer tribes and then we do fecal

[00:36:05] microbiota transplantation for our industrialized society and just to cure some kind of diseases where we are

[00:36:12] knowing that it's actually linked to the reduction of microbial diversity right so this was the the

[00:36:18] the that person's idea which wasn't he wasn't or she wasn't the only person who's actually made that

[00:36:24] comment what i'm asking here about is are there any ethical implications if you do research with the

[00:36:30] with the hunter gatherers and especially in your case the yanomami how do you deal from the between

[00:36:35] okay balancing the science and respecting these populations you you're one of them so i think you're

[00:36:40] already doing that but not every researcher is doing that way and how do you think about this kind of

[00:36:46] question in the sense okay yeah no i think that's a great point so let's kind of segue into bioethics

[00:36:52] and it's a lot to unpack there actually but let me let me um start with the first part of the question

[00:36:57] where you know i think of course so you know our society is always on the hunt for the magic pill for

[00:37:05] whatever right so yeah um which is you know it's not not the right way to approach things and one thing

[00:37:12] is that the microbes that live among the yanomami co-evolved in the yanomami in their ecosystem so

[00:37:18] if food is a driver of their of what maintains their ecosystem right you know kind of like you know you

[00:37:24] look at the amazon and the rain kind of feeds the water and everything well the food feeds the microbes

[00:37:29] um

[00:37:31] and uh

[00:37:32] uh and those microbes you know ingest the food and and not only are they just living there but they're

[00:37:38] also producing all kinds of things that are beneficial to the host and to the yanomami host

[00:37:43] and so if you take that microbe right to say like you say like you um you take a uh uh i don't know like

[00:37:49] like you take a monkey and you plug that out of the jungle and you put it in the middle of the mojave desert

[00:37:55] right what are the chances that monkey's gonna live so pretty low so um yeah so i think this sort of

[00:38:01] reductionist thinking you know can be a little bit dangerous and now you know what now either one that

[00:38:08] monkeys could die right or that monkey could like really take over and just start like you know really

[00:38:15] you know destroying all the you know flora and fauna this new ecosystem so that's the risk right so

[00:38:20] if you do a wholesale of fmt from a yanomami to someone in new york you know you have no idea what's

[00:38:26] going in there um because there's viruses there's back you know we don't know if the bacteria is going

[00:38:31] to survive and so on but that that kind of brings into mind that we have to look at the microbiome

[00:38:36] it's not something that we can find as little piece and extract from it like this little secret gem or

[00:38:40] whatever and that's going to cure everything right i think we have to really respect the microbiome

[00:38:46] ecosystem as a as a reflection of what you eat and how you treat your body and what you eat and how

[00:38:51] you treat your body is a reflection on how you respect your surrounding ecosystem and so here you know

[00:38:58] we don't just respect our surrounding ecosystem through you know the um what we do to our lands to

[00:39:04] our waterways you know pollution and trash and and then adultering our food with chemicals and colors and

[00:39:10] things like that so we completely disrespect our ecosystem and you know and it's no surprise that

[00:39:17] we are having you know all kinds of chronic inflammatory and autoimmune disorders related to

[00:39:22] the microbiome gut microbiome so i think we need to kind of step back and i know it's a little bit more

[00:39:27] abstract and you can't really you know find a pill for respect you know but um when i think through

[00:39:33] knowledge and education you know if we can you know teach people that you are what you eat your microbes

[00:39:38] are what you eat and that when you eat something you're feeding you know the microbes that live in

[00:39:43] your gut as well and i think you know i think that's another opportunity pathway to look at that

[00:39:48] now don't get me wrong there's a lot of things we can learn by studying the yanomami microbiome

[00:39:54] and maybe there's a certain probiotic that can be developed or nutraceutical or maybe it's not so much

[00:40:00] what the microbe is but what it's producing so maybe some metabolite or some kind of something that could

[00:40:04] help you know um so i'm all for that i i i i would want that very much so and then now to the next

[00:40:13] part of your question is ethics you know the yanomami um just like many groups indigenous groups peoples

[00:40:19] around the world have been subjects to biopiracy um exploitation and um and when i have visited these

[00:40:26] yanomami communities there are three common things that i've found when discussing microbiome research with

[00:40:31] them and one is that they're very angry they're just angry at scientists and researchers you know

[00:40:36] over the decades we've parachuted in we've collected their hair we've collected skin their blood you know

[00:40:43] their urine their everything you know and and then anthropologists have come in and collected their

[00:40:49] knowledge their wisdom their language and then we leave and now they're recognizing that these scientists

[00:40:55] or researchers are making money that they're we are advancing our status in society um and oftentimes

[00:41:02] they're even they feel like they're even misrepresenting them and so they're just so angry

[00:41:07] you know in the meantime their lands are being destroyed people are dying in diseases and they're not

[00:41:11] getting the resources that need to fight back so they see us as a single community so they're very angry

[00:41:17] about that and second so the second theme that i often find is that how does microbiome research

[00:41:23] benefit us and we're now learning that you know doing research just getting your irbs and your permits

[00:41:30] it's not good enough right we need to as scientists we actually have a responsibility to give back to the

[00:41:36] community and that's where the foundation really comes in to facilitate those kind of outreach and

[00:41:41] community-based projects and so before we begin research we talk with the leaders we explain to them

[00:41:46] and we're honest with them we're going to say you know we don't know we can't predict the future

[00:41:51] we don't know what the results will look like but what we can do is respect you as a as research

[00:41:56] partners and that we will include you in our discussions and decision-making process and then

[00:42:01] we will return our results and the yanamomi love that because the third theme is is that they want to be

[00:42:07] included they just don't want to be repository of samples they want to be engaged in research they

[00:42:12] want to learn a lot of the communities demanded that i do all my research in there and of course

[00:42:16] i had to tell them well i need negative 80 freezers and you know so so but that's okay that's okay you

[00:42:23] know they appreciate this this type of conversations so i think you know um you know any kind of academic

[00:42:30] that tells me that all i want to do is publish or that the right thing to do is just to get our irb

[00:42:35] permit and write papers to to to benefit all of humanity and to make our data public you know i'm sorry but that's

[00:42:43] completely unethical and you have no right to be among my family or the young among people and collect

[00:42:48] samples there needs to be a new paradigm there needs to be a new way of doing research with the

[00:42:52] young among and i love that yeah so anyway that is what the foundation is what we specialize in

[00:42:58] and ultimately it's going to lead to better research because now we're fostering relationships

[00:43:04] and we can do things like long-term longitudinal studies among the young mommy we can we can create

[00:43:10] ambassadorship programs where they can come visit our labs in canada and things like that so um anyway

[00:43:15] i think it's a very exciting future for microbiome research with the young mommy and i'm just all so

[00:43:20] happy that um the subjects of my research and my research partners and my mom you know my cousins my

[00:43:26] family you're you're lucky you're a lucky uh person david really yeah and i i really love the the passion

[00:43:33] and and let's say that also the involvement that you have been and you're you're the best representative

[00:43:38] of your community and you're giving back which is a very important uh part and looking more of a

[00:43:45] personal question maybe you've done it or not but i'm very curious to know whether what's the longer

[00:43:50] duration you spend into the tribe and have you sequenced your microbiome before and after and seen

[00:43:56] any differences if that's the case yeah so we've actually um in the earlier years when i was just kind

[00:44:05] of hanging out with mom i used to spend several months at a time but um it's been difficult to

[00:44:12] coordinate research just because once you collect samples you know when you when you collect um

[00:44:19] ethnographic data for example right what do you need a pen and a notebook and it doesn't expire

[00:44:25] but microbiome samples as you know we need to get it into the negative 80 freezer as fast as possible you

[00:44:31] know and so i've developed you know kind of like these um mobile jungle labs where i'm able to collect

[00:44:37] samples and store them and keep them anaerobic you know during the transport until we get to the negative

[00:44:42] 80 freezers in the laboratory so the trips are becoming you know um more sparse but like three weeks

[00:44:49] at a time are roughly how much i spend and of course i wish i could spend more and one of these trips i will

[00:44:54] go down and just spend more time and then i did a project um a few years ago it's actually still ongoing with

[00:45:00] one of our collaborators um at weiss biosciences that looked at the yanomami skin microbiome

[00:45:06] with dr larry weiss and his r d team and so what we've done we sampled my skin and along um throughout

[00:45:13] different time points before and after and what's interesting is that the skin micro my skin microbiome

[00:45:20] started shifting towards that of the yanomami as i spent over two three weeks but what we're recognizing is

[00:45:26] that um you know a lot of a lot of what's on the skin of the yanomami person is highly microbial and

[00:45:32] you're picking that up from the surrounding ecosystem and and i'm sorry highly uh highly environmental

[00:45:38] and and so it's like there's this extra protective layer that i recognize that when i'm here in canada

[00:45:44] like when i take a bath like you know use soap and i just kind of strip it all away i'm not getting those

[00:45:50] microbes back from the environment so um yeah no uh and then i haven't really done a really deep look

[00:45:56] into my gut microbiome but i'm hoping on my next trip that i'll do that as well um but i'm sure that

[00:46:02] also changes as well as i as i live longer in the i think without a doubt really and thank you so much

[00:46:08] as well for sharing that personal as well aspect and um honestly i could have spent hours and and listening

[00:46:14] to you and uh it's very fascinating um story uh and and science uh let's say expedition and and

[00:46:22] perspective that i think many of the the listeners would love uh we come to the end of the microbiome

[00:46:28] mavericks already and however there are still five questions that i asked to all the mavericks and

[00:46:33] you're definitely one of them starting very short ones and uh starting with why do you do what you do

[00:46:42] why do i do what i do yeah it's it's um it's it's it's further i feel what i'm doing right now

[00:46:53] there was a time in my life where i you know i was in a very dark time in my life and wasn't sure

[00:46:59] you know if i was going to get out of it and when i discovered my young mommy heritage and found my

[00:47:04] family and who they are and and their important role in keeping the amazon healthy and who they are

[00:47:11] as a people protects the planet right just by by just by living day in and day out who i am as a person

[00:47:18] in this society we consume we destroy we we burn resources and um and so i do what i do because

[00:47:26] i feel that my family is very special but yet i want to do everything i can to help them not just

[00:47:34] for the sake of helping but because it's my family you know every time i walk into the lab every time i

[00:47:39] grow microbial strain i know that this is for the yanamomi people and this is for the amazon so that's

[00:47:44] i don't know that's what kind of keeps me going yeah amazing really amazing can you share one productivity

[00:47:50] tip i'm sorry rosa can you share one productivity tip one productivity tip

[00:47:59] i i would like productivity tips yeah my gosh yeah um i mean i can only share this

[00:48:09] as where i am now today as a phd student and and and just uh yeah just stay away you two things right

[00:48:17] stay away from the cell phone stay away from the soldier yeah i know we're supposed to promote this on

[00:48:22] social media but you gotta tune it out and tune it out and then um next time you eat you know think

[00:48:30] about cooking and then thinking about what it is that you're eating like where the food came from

[00:48:35] and where that you know the texture of food and how that feeds your microbes i know that when i do that

[00:48:39] i i just feel like i don't know more connected with the surrounding ecosystem so yeah cooking i i would say

[00:48:45] is definitely a good productivity tip amazing the best advice i ever had right cooking is

[00:48:52] it's very good do you have a book or that you liked or offered to someone oh um

[00:49:01] well um i would say um i would say go ahead and if you want to learn more about the yanamomi the

[00:49:11] falling sky by davi kopanawa is a great you know it's a great book um of course i do have to plug the

[00:49:18] fact that we just published a graphic novel called good also named good that's that was just released

[00:49:24] last month and it's in bookstores right so that that's a graphic novel feel free um it was illustrated

[00:49:29] by john malloy who's a great illustrator and it's um a graphical representation of my book but

[00:49:34] if you want to learn more about shaman's perspective of the dangers of the of the outside world

[00:49:40] destroying the amazon the falling sky is a great one thank you so much for the advice can you tell us

[00:49:45] about someone who inspires you ah someone who inspires me um uh well there's many people i bet you

[00:50:00] get a lot of people having trouble with these questions yes yes yes you're not the only one

[00:50:05] yeah um so i dry i i so when i think about you know how to get through the day and think about

[00:50:13] what i'm doing and to to achieve success you know um uh i have to say um the one person that truly you

[00:50:21] know i look up to and and that inspires me a lot to be to be better student and to really move forward

[00:50:29] with the mission um is uh um dr simone renick um she's been um pivotal uh in helping me understand

[00:50:38] you know the microbiome and and she's going to be joining the the onamame foundation and the project

[00:50:44] as well and she's an expert and um studying the uh the infant gut microbiome and and we're looking

[00:50:51] about looking at maybe like the fact of breast milk on the gut microbiome so definitely one person that

[00:50:56] really keeps me going amazing last question if you would help to change something in this world what

[00:51:03] would that be just something huh um yeah you know when i what i love about the yanomami is that when we

[00:51:16] travel from one village to another we always stop and say hello and when we say we don't there is no how

[00:51:24] are you you know because it's a weird question they say what do you mean how am i i'm here i'm standing

[00:51:29] i'm alive but they like really connect you know and i just sometimes when i walk by people here and

[00:51:37] and i look at them and i smile but they just kind of walk past you and and i know don't get me wrong

[00:51:42] i'm not blaming them but i just wish something about this world where we can just all take a pause

[00:51:48] and just kind of like speak to somebody and really truly don't say how are you as a sort of this red

[00:51:53] um you know empty words like really connect at a human level yeah it's a better connection to him

[00:51:58] 11. it's definitely great ending to this uh very very interesting uh episode of the microbiome mavericks

[00:52:05] david good the founder of the animami foundation and a phd student on his quest to unlock uh the

[00:52:12] potential and hidden secrets of the yanomami microbiome thank you so much for being on this

[00:52:17] episode it was a great pleasure of being uh with you and listening to you and if you are interested

[00:52:23] you are a listener interested to know more obviously david has a documentary and as he mentioned have

[00:52:29] a graphical book so feel free to check them out thank you so much david i had a lot of fun thank you for

[00:52:35] having me take care thank you my pleasure